This is too long for a Twitter post, and I’m not using that stupid Twitlonger thing…so here we go.
I don’t think the reason we interview the way we do is that complicated. Here’s the guesses I got from folks yesterday.
hmm…maybe. I have referred to some of our processes as “sanctioned hazing”. I’m not sure exactly what she’s referring to with HR issues.
Also, TJ went the “sanctioned hazing” route as well.
Fascinating.
Here’s my guess:
In student affairs, we regularly do national job searches. When we bring in candidates, usually a final three, then folks often have to fly in, often including an overnight stay or at the least, difficulty in doing an interview and flying out on the same day (though business travelers do this sort of thing).
So, that leaves many schools with a lot of hours to kill with a candidate.
I think, quite literally, the repetitive interviews with assorted groups of students and staff is more about filling the time than anything. We’ve got candidates on campus for a whole day and we feel like they should have something to do the whole day.
Let’s be honest, there are often a limited number of deciders in a job interview. Usually these people get the alone time that they need to evaluate.
I’ve mentioned before that often these presentations that candidates give do nothing but reinforce what we see from candidates in singular interviews.
I just have a hard time believing that “because we have the time!” is really a good reason for having a process that either wastes ours or the candidate’s time and may not even be that efficient.
One of my colleagues said the other day that “we are silly for how we interview in student affairs”. I agree. The process of having one hour interviews where different constituent groups ask the same questions is hilarious and repetitive, and could even be called time wasted.
And if the only reason we do it that way is because we literally have to kill the time, that’s even worse.
First and foremost, much of your argument seems to be completely rooted in capitalistic terms where the only things that are valuable are those that have been monetized. For example, you write about “ROI” and value in purely economic terms. That bothers me not because they are unimportant but because there are other things that are also important. The strongest counter argument I can muster is the classic idea of the value of a well-educated and literate electorate, value that doesn’t necessarily map to economic value but is inherently critical for a democratic society. Another strong counter argument focuses on the other resources and experiences that are undervalued in economic terms but important to us all i.e. the arts, education.
I’m confused as to how this counters my argument that we’d like graduates to stay in the state they were graduated in.
Second, it seems unrealistic and unfair to expect people – especially young people if we’re talking about traditional students – to *know* that they want to live in a particular state many years in advance. Jeff brought up the practical point of “can they stay e.g. will there be a job available?” which is a very similar counter argument.
Who said anything about planning it out? We’re talking about staying in the state you were educated in for a few years after graduation. Some will choose to leave, and they’re more than welcome to, as long as they are good with paying the out of state rate.
Your final point about decreasing state funding levels making this a moot discussion is a good albeit depressing point. It seems like we’re not really willing to have this discussion and are instead backing into it. The discussions about the DREAM Act and its state-level equivalents seem to be the main arena for this discussion and they’re charged with so much nationalism and racism that I don’t know if it’s a fair gauge of public opinion on this different issue.
agreed.
Isn’t one of the primary foundations of in-state tuition the idea that you (or your parents if you’re a dependent) have already paid a significant amount in state taxes and have already earned or paid for this benefit?
So you’re going to argue that they’re expecting a direct benefit to them of their investment in the university system? I’m almost certain that is a private good. Public good would indicate that the system is supported by the state because it supports the state as a whole. It’s like a highway. You pay to pave roads all over your state, even if you don’t drive. The benefit is still available to them, but the state needs to protect it’s investment for the benefit of all, no?
From Liz Gross…
At what point does the federal interest in education play into this? Most students are only able to attend school because of federal aid/loan programs.
Now, THERE is an interesting question and the reason I had planned on writing a part 3 to this anyway. I’m going to avoid the obvious discussion about whether the federal aid/loan system recoups any money for the feds, especially now that they’ve taken over the loan system completely. It’s too complex for a blog post, and frankly, I don’t want to dig up the data. For the purposes of this post, let’s just assume that if you take out a loan, you eventually pay it back to the government loan system with interest.
I absolutely think the federal interest plays a part, and should probably pay a bigger part here.
First, my idea is loosely patterned off of the system I mentioned in my previous post about my home state as well as the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program offered by the Feds. In order to qualify for the PSLF, you must:
be employed full-time in a public service job for each of the 120 monthly payments. Public service jobs include, among other positions, emergency management, government (excluding time served as a member of Congress), military service, public safety and law enforcement (police and fire), public health (including nurses, nurse practitioners, nurses in a clinical setting, and full-time professionals engaged in health care practitioner occupations and health care support occupations), public education, early childhood education (including licensed or regulated childcare, Head Start, and State-funded prekindergarten), social work in a public child or family service agency, public services for individuals with disabilities or the elderly, public interest legal services (including prosecutors, public defenders and legal advocacy on behalf of low-income communities at a nonprofit organization), public librarians, school librarians and other school-based services, and employees of tax exempt 501(c)(3) organizations. Full-time faculty at tribal colleges and universities, as well as faculty teaching in high-need subject areas and shortage areas (including nurse faculty, foreign language faculty, and part-time faculty at community colleges), also qualify
Unfortunately, way too many folks taking out loans don’t know about this program. The system in my home state definitely has a lot of similarities.
Second, I wondered when I was initially conceiving this why North Carolina should have any problem with that young lady pursuing employment in Wisconsin. Why should we be in competition with other states (or institutions within our own state…a question for another time)? Wouldn’t the more obvious support for education come from the federal government instead of the states if we live in a society which encourages mobility post-graduation?
Third, and coming back to Jeff’s question from yesterday…if each state has a specialty, a generalization but roll with me, wouldn’t it be better for the federal government to be a primary supporter of education generally through loans and grants, and then allow the individual states to offer incentive programs to either retain top students or encourage top students to attend their schools and stay in their states? For instance, we know North Carolina has a strong banking industry…what if they offered to retire loans on any aspiring business students that attended a UNC school and worked for 5 years in the banking industry in NC?
Unfortunately, no one on Twitter or in the comments decided to ask the question that I was hoping to drag out of someone, so it looks like I’m going to have to go there myself.
Let’s continue using my home state as an example. Instead of using where I work, I’ll go a few miles down the road and look at UNC Chapel Hill and consider their fees, etc.
Base Tuition for In-State is $7008, but the full cost of attendance (shoutout to #EDUsports) falls at a gag inducing $20,660. Yikes.
For out-of-state, the tuition is $26,834, and the full cost of attendance is $41,140. Oh boy.
Over the course of 4 years, you’re looking at a cost of attendance of $82,640 for in state students and $164,560 for out of state students. And, just because of the tuition gap (the rest is estimated travel), the difference is $19,826 per year and $79,304 for 4 years.
So, basically, I was making the claim yesterday that students who choose to leave the state after their graduation should have to pick up the full out of state cost, since they’ve chosen to use the benefits of their education to not benefit the state. And with that suggestion, I’m implicitly saying that because you choose to leave the state, you should owe an additional $79, 304 dollars to the state of North Carolina. Yes, that is what I am saying.
I want to address some things in the comment that I got yesterday from JJ:
When I worked at UT-Austin’s Business School companies came from all around the US to recruit our students. That was one of the reason it was ranked so high (5th at the time, not sure now). When companies came to visit they brought their checkbook creating scholarships, funding leadership programs, and endowing professorships. If students were discourages to leave the state that would all go away. It would be interesting to see the flow of out of state money/donations versus the number of students leaving the state for employment.
Interesting point and one I hadn’t considered. I’m curious how the difference between the in-state funding and the moneys coming from these companies matched up. But here’s the critical point – you’re actually making an argument that it’s a private good here, since students are leaving the state to find the best situation, not staying in the state to benefit the state.
Back to the example of your friend. I do not know how the NC tax system is, but I’m sure he and his family have paid a fair amount of taxes into the system. That should count for something.
Frankly, I disagree. People without kids pay for the school system through tax dollars. People pay it forward to social security that may never receive it. People fund social welfare programs that may never use it. You fund the university system because it’s supposed to benefit the state. It’s absurd that people who get the funding from the system (the students) should then be allowed to go elsewhere without actually benefitting the state.
Lastly there is always a question of major employers. Does NC have enough major employer to pay a competitive wage for all the graduates of NC? When I worked at The U of A it was assumed many of the student would leave AZ due to lack of employment opportunities. CA, NY, TX would not have this problem, but how would other states deal with this?
I’d use this as a private good argument as well. Are the students doing what best benefits them or what best serves the state? You can do investment banking in North Carolina. If you go to New York, frankly, I don’t blame you, but I resent that you took the money and ran, and I think you should have received the out of state rate.
There’s still an obvious argument hanging out there, but I’m going to let it alone for now.
Common knowledge says that higher ed is primarily a public good instead of a private good, and I can mostly ride with that. Higher education employs people, generates research, employs extension agents that aid areas all over the states (land grants like whoa) and educates many professions that do stay within the state primarily like nurses and teachers. Awesome.
But I revisited this idea over the weekend as we were discussing a mutual friend who was educated in our state university system and now works in Wisconsin. How is North Carolina reaping benefits from this individual? Or any other individuals who are educated on the state’s dime and then bolt for greener pastures?
I’d argue that they don’t.
So why are their educations supported in a similar manner to those of people who do stay in the state?
Now you could definitely make the argument that they’re ambassadors for the state and for the institution, but frankly, I’d say the cost of supporting them educationally is very high compared to the value that the state receives from educating them. Astronomically high, even.
Our state in particular has done something to try to get people to stay so they can glean some benefit from education, offering tremendous assistance to those in what you might call “public service” professions (ie medical, education) to get their education paid for if they agree to serve in an under served area for a few years.
But for those who major in non-service professions, shouldn’t there be some incentive to stay home if we’re going to educate you?
My opinion is that state aid should, specifically the enormous money that the state spends on higher ed, should produce more skilled work force for the state, that stays here, and that produces a highly qualified and skilled workforce for the state. If that’s not happening, we shouldn’t be supporting their education.
So what if, instead of flat support for student’s education, we offer the out of state tuition rate for all students, and then students can only owe the in-state tuition (or less) if they spend 10 years living in the state they went to school AFTER school?
You’d guarantee a more direct ROI, you’d keep the people you educated at home, and you’d guarantee that the great schools that are in your state, that produce great product, would actually be benefitting the state itself, instead of the best and brightest going elsewhere. Also, you’d encourage people to actually attend school where they might want to be AFTER school.
I was reviewing my transcripts this weekend and I noticed how poorly I had done during the year I was most involved in college. My GPA up until that year sat at a solid 3.615. Given that I was taking an intensive pre-pharmacy curriculum, and had 2 president’s list and 1 dean’s list semester, I feel pretty good about this number.
During the year I did student activities, I had 30 credit hours and pulled 2.57 GPA.
The following year, as student body president, a less demanding role on my campus, I was back to a 3.66.
So, what happened? I was super involved. I always tell people that my job during that year became student activities. I was Mr. Involved Student. Hell, I apparently liked it so much that I decided not to be good at my grades.
Of course, there could be 75 other factors in there, like the ending of a long term relationship, and a lot of other personal change. But I do believe the numbers are startling. A full point down in GPA and a return to that previous position the next year.
One last option, if you’re really feeling ambitious and like me (or just like helping people), Anyone who gives a gift of at least $5 to Charity Water using my birthday page will not only make MY day, but also make someone else’s. And just for the hell of it, I’ll throw in everything I mentioned above…for free.
I gave my social media presentation for a group of our graduate students last week and ever since then I’ve been thinking about the themes and ideas that we talked about. Here are a few conclusions:
I genuinely believe higher ed is in trouble. And by higher ed, I don’t mean education. I mean the general model of the 4 year away from home university as we know it. Look, we know that social media is a part of a larger movement where publishing is going to the masses and information sharing isn’t restrained to publishing houses, record labels, newspapers, and university ivory towers. It’s not hard to figure out that higher ed is in the crosshairs of this societal wave. Seriously people, this is the biggest change since the printing press. It’s turned publishing from a professionals game into anyone’s game. Case in point, this article about SUNY . I predicted 4 years ago that this exact thing would happen (ask my homie TJ). Folks, that is the beginning of a seismic change in higher ed and kudos for SUNY for stepping up and getting with the times. That’s just the beginning. If your business focuses on sharing of information, you’re going to get caught up in the tidal wave and not only do we do that in higher ed, that’s the CORE of our business. Ruh roh.
Academic Publishing is in trouble. Have you seen the costs for these journals? Get the hell out of here. How long can they restrain those hungry to publish their work when we can publish FOR FREE TO THE ENTIRE WORLD? It’s only because the academic world has an established order and hierarchy that this system continues to persist, but it can’t last. Too many societal and economic forces are pushing against it. The walls are coming down. Here’s a thought: you don’t need a PhD to publish anymore. Hell, you don’t even need a degree. Got a great idea and want to share it with the entire world? You can literally publish it immediately and share it with everyone. Who’s going to be the first to thumb their nose at the entire publishing system and get theirs in their own way?
This is all about power structures. Traditional power structures that have already been affected by the democratization of publishing – newspapers, the music industry, radio, Arab leadership, and the 1% . Freedom to publish media cheaply is causing havoc to traditional power structures. I described it as an “end around” to traditional power structures, but even that I’m not sure is accurate. Traditional power structures are a dam designed to hold the elite above everyone else. The democratization of publishing is a battleaxe. It’s erosion. It’s a hurricane. It’s an earthquake. These power structures cannot hold. I described higher ed the other day as holding the fort walls. Here’s the thing: the game’s already over. Either get with the future and move, or get your ass knocked over when the dam bursts. Your choice.
So, here is my question and my challenge to anyone who reads this….
What are you going to do within this reality?
The ability to publish free and simply changes things for folks who work in education, it changes things for folks who need education, it changes things for folks who are trying to “come up” in the world, and it changes things for folks who are on top.
In closing, I’m going to encourage everyone to watch this TED talk (i know, i hate TED…but it will at least get those who are questioning me caught up) that Clay Shirky gave in 2005. He sounds almost prescient, specifically at the 19: 06 mark.
You’re not obsessed with student led, staff supported programming. I think there’s a place for staff led programs. If programs are educational, they can be led by staff, but I do think that even this might be better as peer mentoring. If students lead initiatives with staff providing support and advising, students get engaged in a whole different level of programming
You don’t see yourself as an educator first. I know it doesn’t feel like it sometimes since we do so much crap to cover the university’s butt (and our own), but seriously, I wonder if you’ve lost all perspective when you say that you are anything other than an educator first and you work in student affairs.
You give up on assessment, or don’t try at all. I’m not talking about surveys. I’m talking about asking questions of the proper party to improve your practice. Are students learning anything? And if these aren’t “learning centric” (ie fun), then are we serving the population we should be. It makes me think you don’t see yourself as point 2.
You don’t know any faculty or try to connect with any. It makes me think you don’t have any idea what learning reconsidered is. Listen, I get that this is tough, but I read learning reconsidered not as a validation of student affairs, but instead as a redefining of learning as a whole. If you’re not educating the whole person, as a university, you’re not turning out the product that betters societies. Faculty and student affairs (should there even be the division?) should be engaged with learning collaboratively. To claim to be educators that don’t work with faculty is highly confusing.
You’re not advancing your education. I’m not talking “professional development” or Twitter chats. I’m talking about real substantive education. You work at a university for God’s sake. Classes are free. What the hell?
You forget that this is a job. Passion is great, fun is great, excitement is wonderful, but the truth is that you do this to earn an income and hopefully, possibly, occasionally enjoy it. You’re getting paid to educate students and keep them in school, not to have fun or get your giggles. Don’t forget about that job part.
You create policies and fees that are hostile to the goals of other staff. If you’re not allowing students to program or charging them unnecessary fees to program, I don’t know what you’re thinking. There are folks who are your colleagues that are charged with getting more programs to happen. I’m so confused.
You baby students or treat them like your friends. They’re not your friends and you’re not getting a medal for cutting them slack. Try and teach them something when they screw up. Don’t encourage bad behavior.
You think student fees don’t matter. Look, if you don’t realize that the fee gravy train can run out at any minute, I wonder if you’re high. Treat fees with disrespect at your own peril, my friends.
You haven’t read the foundational documents of our field. I get that graduate school reading wasn’t for everybody. But you should at least read “learning reconsidered” and chickering. Think about it. Critique it. Do some research. Be awesome
With an inherently serious app already available, I wanted to make something available that was a little less serious. I think everyone who works in student affairs has been frustrated with student development or students in general or maybe just working in student affairs, and you’ve wondered to yourself, what’s the big deal with this Chickering dude anyway?
Maybe it would make you feel better to Draw on Chickering.
Introducing the Draw on Chickering app! Draw on Chickering in 3 colors as well as big and large dots. Perfect for getting through those frustrating days in grad school and work! Stop posting passive aggressive posts on Twitter and start drawing on Chickering’s face (not endorsed by Chickering himself, even though that would be awesome).
Click the Buy Now button, credit cards as well as PayPal accepted and I’ll send you the APK file and installation instructions. Android only.
I posted on Twitter recently that I wanted to learn how to program phone apps. Here’s my first foray into doing so. This is an Android app specifically for student affairs professionals.
Are you a seasoned student affairs professional who needs a little theory refresher? Or maybe a grad student that’s trying to test yourself on your theory knowledge? This app is simple enough for you to pop open once in awhile as a refresher, but substantive enough to make you think about what it is we do as a profession.
I’m offering this for now for $.99. Send in a Paypal payment using the link below and I’ll send you the APK file and installation instructions for Android so you can install the app yourself.
I wrote previously on my blog about school spirit http://jefflail.com/2011/01/20/school-spirit/ and we had the same committee meeting that inspired the first school spirit post again today, our first meeting of the semester. One of my main comments to the committee was asking whether there was actual data on what students feel spirited about and why they don’t feel spirited.
I was Mr. Involved and Mr. Spirit as a student. I didn’t really go to the sporting events, because we stunk; from high school through college, I think the winning percentages of the teams I supported was somewhere below the 20 percent level, and despite the community experience of being around athletics and sharing in losing, it really kinda sucks to lose. Would I rather go somewhere else and see something fun or see my team get their butt handed to them? Easy decision. To Raleigh We Go! My spirit was much more tied to the activities, people and ideals of the institution that I attended. In my previous post, I wrote a lot about how I feel that school spirit cannot be divorced from identity. Dare I say, organizational spirit is intensely tied to identity. If we know who we are and do who we are, then people that will want to stay with us will be people who believe in who we are. If we don’t know who we are, how are we supposed to attract and retain folks that care about us? Isn’t school spirit really about retaining?
It’s a bit weird working in the college profession. I described my job to a buddy of mine as “in their world but not of their world”. I think sometimes we can be almost like a police officer; we get a dose of their personality, a smidge of their personality, but ultimately, we’re someone who doesn’t exist in their universe. I know it, they know it, and I hope we all know it. So, to me, as a spirited student at one point, I’m not quite sure what to make of school spirit for professionals.
I love getting paid and getting told “good boy” and getting a pat on the head when I’ve done good. I really love raises, good performance reviews, free shit (but there’s a limit) and coworkers that I like hanging around. I like getting free tickets to basketball games against Duke and I like not being hassled about minutia. But all this is work! It’s not really spirit is it? Isn’t spirit really about believing in the cause? Think of someone who works with the church or with a political organization. Isn’t spirit for these organizations tied to a shared ideology revolving around a common goal?
And honestly, I think it’s got to be bigger than education, because if you think that all universities are about is education in 2011, you must be crazy. And it’s definitely got to be bigger than athletics. The real problem with it being about education is that every school in the country claims to be about education. It has to be about a mission to educate. Who are you educating? Why are you educating them? How are you educating them? I think it’s truly amazing the things people will do (i went to a religious based institution for undergrad, I met some truly insane zealots, but they were DOWN for the cause) when they are spirited/believe in the cause.
So, here’s my central question… I really wonder if you can sell something, if you can support something, if you can be spirited for something, if you don’t believe in it? I don’t think you can (unless you’re an egomaniac or a sociopath or are getting rich from it..but, well, that’s not happening here!)
As I was pondering this, I realized that I can ride much harder for the student union ideal and campus activities as a valid part of the student experience than I can for any other area. I’m not surprised, since, ya know, I work there. But I wonder if other folks feel the same way. Maybe this, and not disinterest in collaboration, is why the silo effect happens. Oh, and the career center, y’all are cool too. But seriously, I really wonder if other folks feel the same way I do, where more than an employee of their institution, they see themselves as an employee of their department or office. Or even student affairs.
For me, at this point in my career, in order to maintain a healthy balance in my life, I think “school spirit” is just not where I’m at. Employee morale, yes. School Spirit, not really. Keep paying me and give me a raise or a promotion and I’m almost certain that will help my morale. Keep me afraid of my job and budget cuts and I’m almost certain my morale will be low. Keep the beatings going! (i hope someone gets that joke)
As far as school spirit for the students, let’s ask them. My suspicion is still that it’s more about our institutional identity than anything as to why students allegedly don’t have spirit (real talk: i’m not even sure I believe that they don’t have spirit. I think they don’t have spirit for ATHLETICS. Big difference. Can’t wait to see the data) But as for the staff, to be honest, when budgets are down and people are losing the jobs, I think we just need to do what people in the rest of the world do when things suck.
Last Saturday, I went down to a local second hand store where items that are damaged are distributed for super cheap sale. I was able to score some great deals (mach 3 razors for $2!!!), but I was more interested by the crowd. I had a discussion with The Chef about it on the way back where I asked her how many of those people she thought didn’t have any money. Her response “almost all of them”. We decided that a few of the people were like us, middle class folks looking for a deal, but that by and large, the crowd was the working poor. Folks who were there because they didn’t have another option.
I’m going to make a large statement here – I think economic class is the biggest divide in our country, money divides us much more than skin color, sex, or sexual orientation. One thing I thought as I was going around the store was that I really don’t run in the circles that have poor people (again, not talking people who don’t make much money, I’m talking POOR).
Back up a few weeks…we had an event on campus, as most campuses do, for local businesses where they were giving out the “CFO of the year” award. For those truly in the dark, CFO=Chief Financial Officer. These guys just smelled of money. Neatly coiffed, wearing expensive suits, walking with an air of power. I felt like I was on another planet. I don’t run in these circles either.
I’m not of the country clubs or of the slums. I’m of the middle class. I shop at the nice, but relatively inexpensive grocery store (Harris Teeter). I have an office that doesn’t smell of rich mahogany and leather bound books, but I also have an office with air conditioning and a marginally comfy chair, where, let’s be honest, I make a great salary for what I do. I can take vacations, but I can’t take super extravagant ones. I sleep at the median priced hotel and eat out with coupons. I have a huge apartment in an older building that i have TO MYSELF. I drive a car that I bought new…albeit it is a KIA. Are you catching the pitcher I’m painting? I’m not rich, but to some of those people at the second hand shop….I am rich.
But I don’t operate in either of these circles, except for these occasional times where we pass like strangers in the night. My friends and colleagues are like me, decidedly middle class and, aside from slight variations, we do the same things and have similar lives. Even the least well off people where I work have lives that are not altogether different from my own.
So, here’s the question that’s been rattling around in my head…how do we stop these from being the boundaries? Obviously our country could take a Robin Hood philosophy (or I guess I could literally be Robin Hood), and we (I) could take things from the rich and give to the poor. We could make us all the same financially. And to be honest, that is a potential solution. But you can’t keep the peace and have a solution like that (is peace a goal?), because if you thought the 60s was bad, wait until you start trying to go after economic justice. In the immortal words of Clay Davis “sheeeeeeeeeeeeet”. It would be on like Donkey Kong.
But a principle I’m trying to live by as I get older is that to be able to assist or fellowship with someone, you must understand them. And to be able to understand them, you must be around them and see what makes them….them. I literally do not presently operate in these worlds at all, so to be able to be around them, I have to change some things. And to be completely honest with you, I have no clue where to begin.
Do I move to the hood and start going to the rich church? Do I start busing tables at the country club? I have no idea.
But that revelation just punched me in the chest last weekend. Maybe I should start mixing classes a little more so that doesn’t feel so profound.
I started thinking about this idea, because there have at least been some rumblings about the student affairs program at UNCG being in danger; I don’t personally lend much credence to these rumors. Truth be told, with budget cuts as deep as the ones that we’re getting ready to feel the brunt of, we’re all in danger here. The second reason was some comments on this article about WWU getting rid of their student affairs program. One particular comment stung a bit.
The fact that a university could offer a Master’s degree in something called Student Affairs Administration demonstrates just how sad things are in academe.
The State of Washington and Western Washington University will be much better off without this academic tripe.
If this year’s loss of public money has provided this result, the state legislature should do more of the same budget cutting next session.
Interesting point, no?
My comment on Twitter was that he may have a point. In my opinion, the value of student affairs programs, like any other program, is all over the map. Some are a complete waste of time, some are very assistantship focused (mine was) and some are academically rigorous. So, if you want to come on here and argue about whether we need student affairs programs, I’m going to delete your comment.
My question is how we would acquire the skills that would make us good at our jobs without having a specific department dedicated to these degrees.
I’m going to go through my degree audit and see where things might land if they weren’t taught by student affairs folks.
Foundations of Student Affairs – this is a tough one. rough start! Basic idea was to learn about different functional areas in student affairs. My solution: “The American University” – a course that covers university structures and functions – it’s written for student affairs folks, professors, athletic admin, anyone who wants to work in the university system. I’d house it in the business school since it focuses on org theory and let a senior level (i’m thinking vice chancellor of something) teach it.
Research in Adult and Higher Ed – This could be taught by any professor, really. Just require a research methods course for behavioral sciences.
History of Higher Education – it’s important to note that these last two courses have not focused on student affairs. Suggestion: “History of Education in America” – house it in the history department. Surely someone could teach this that would be worthwhile from that department.
The Adult Learner – not really a student affairs class either. This was an elective for me…sooo….you could take pretty much anything here.
Law and Higher Education – another class that wasn’t student affairs. There are a plethora of places you could stick something like this and make it worthwhile. You’re telling me pre-law students as well as aspiring law breakers wouldn’t take something like this? C’mon now.
Statistics for Behavioral Sciences – I took this as an elective (yes, i’m insane). It was taught in the Stats Dept. Moving on.
Student Characteristics – to be honest, I could have done without this class completely. However, if we still need it, I think you stick it in the education department and call it “teaching the millenial (or fill in generation)” and offer it for higher ed folks as well as high school teachers.
Finance and Higher Ed – elective that I took from the doctoral progarm. You can debate the necessity of the doctoral programs, but that’s not really something I want to do here. I do think we need people studying higher education, professors, law, etc, but I’m not sure this couldn’t be accomplished elsewhere. That being said, it’s finance. We focused alot on state and national funding of education, so I think you call it something like “state/private funding of education” and stick it in the political science or business school.
Group Counseling – counseling class, offered through the school of counseling. Not much to see here.
Current Issues in Higher Education – I honestly can’t remember what we did. Much like the initial course, I think this could be of value as a seminar type class for anyone aspiring to be professors or admins or just work in or with higher education. If I had to put this somewhere, I’d probably put it in the government/poli sci area, but I wouldn’t lose any sleep if we replaced this with an elective.
Admin and Finance of Student Affairs – nice course, but I actually think we would have been better served by requiring two masters level business courses instead of this and the last one. I don’t see why we need to specialize this skill so much (remember, we want to learn competencies!).
Student Development Theory – I’d do the same thing here that I did with the Student Characteristics Class. Focus it on how students develop from high school through college (c’mon….you’re telling me it wouldn’t be better to get some more scope here? as well as having HS teachers better educated about development?)
So, that’s my plan on what I would do if we lost student affairs programs as currently constituted. I think you could offer degrees in higher education administration that pull from all sorts of departments, while making those departments better at the same time.
And that’s not to mention that there might be value in having an MBA or a Masters in counseling graduate (or even a masters in recreation) working in our student affairs departments. The important part is the core competencies that can be gained from these classes and degrees and not being tied to the programs themselves if that’s not what the university wants to continue to support.
My good friend Laura Pasquini shared this link on twitter a while back, a youtube video with people sharing their biggest regret (ok, it wasn’t this video, but I couldn’t find the original. this will do).
My initial response was that I try to not live with regrets, I just have things that I do using the information I have at the time. It’s foolish, I think, to look back and think about regrets because you’re viewing it through a lens that was different than the one you had that you used to decide to do whatever you did that you regret. It’s unfair.
So on the surface, I hate this question because it’s unfair and it’s filled with people being unfair to themselves. I’ve seen too many people in my life get so burdened down with regrets of things they did, things that they wish they did and things they shouldn’t have done. They stop functioning and stop living forward. To quote Don Draper, do what you have to do in life, move forward and you’ll be surprised by how much these things didn’t matter.
However, I was surprised to find myself at the orientation presentation I give for students, starting to realize something I regret. I was giving three presentations, off and on, during orientation sessions, one which focused on parents and rallied them to get their students involved with campus, one on campus events and our campus activities board, and one on the offices in student affairs and how we provide life-changing experiences and resources for students. Two of these sessions, the ones that weren’t about campus events, were presented with other offices, including the career center. The funny thing is that I found myself mentioning, quite specifically, the career center in the other session. But why? I wonder if I didn’t see myself quite a bit in their 18 year old faces, making me feel that I needed to tell 18 year old me a story.
Let’s backtrack.
I started off college as a business major. During the first week of school, I changed to pre-pharmacy, presumably because I wanted to make that bread (academic advisors will find that familiar). I did well in pre-pharm, and was admitted to pharmacy school after my sophomore year. While working in the pharmacy, I realized that I hated it, so I drove back down to my college the summer before pharmacy school, dropped out and re-enrolled in undergrad as a chemistry/biology major. After one semester, I dropped the bio major to a minor and would eventually graduate as a chemistry major. Somewhere in there I got wrapped up in student activities and we know how that ended (if you don’t, check my about page).
So, not knowing what to do with myself at this point, I left to live in California for the summer, while I waited to hear back from the bizarre collection of graduate school applications I’d submitted (phd in chemistry, mba, divinity school (yes, i said that)). I was admitted to all and decided that the phd in chem was the best financial path since I’d be making a whopping $24k per year and have my tuition covered. I would end up leaving the program after a semester with terrible grades, complete disinterest in my classes and the stink of failure. I would have left in September, truth be told, because I hated it, but I couldn’t give up on my teaching obligations.
Fueled by that experience, I somehow acquired a teaching position teaching 7th grade science that I would leave at the end of the school year. After that, I got a CNA certification and got a job at a small surgery center. During the course of that year, I decided I wanted to do student affairs, but couldn’t apply. So I left this job when my lease ran out and was able to acquire a job working in the mortgage industry with Wells Fargo. During my time there, I’d be admitted to grad school and the rest, as they say, is history.
So, why did I tell you all this? Other than self-mutilation?
The truth is, I was a complete idiot. I hope that the seasoned career folks and student affairs pros can see the foolishness in my path there. I entered college with no direction, left college with no direction and spent the next four years doing the career exploration that should have been done as a college student, if not as a high school student. In truth, I didn’t realize how lost I was. My parents weren’t able to help, even though I know they really wanted to, and I wasn’t wise enough to seek professional help at that age.
My biggest regret is that I didn’t know how lost I was. I wish that I’d had the intelligence and foresight to go ask a seasoned career pro to help me through how lost I was, maybe to give me a career inventory or something (oddly enough, one of these landed me in student affairs). I wish that I hadn’t spent three years wandering around lost. It cost me a relationship, friendships, three years of earning potential, a lot of emotional distress, and a lot of time doing something I love.
So, I think that’s why I felt compelled to reach out to these freshman. I don’t want them to end up like me, someone who just blindly stumbled into his vocation. All of the resources I used to get here are available to anyone on the internet or in a career services office. Don’t be a moron like me and not take advantage of it if you find yourself lost.
Truth be told, I’ve seen a career professional 4 times since I started my masters degree in 2007, and I plan on going back the next time I feel a little bit lost. They’re good at it, and I trust that they have my best interest at heart.
That’s the thing about regrets. As long as they inform your future, and move you on towards something positive, they’re worth your time. Just remember, as the avetts say, when you run make sure you run to something not away from. I think I’m running the right way….for now.
We talked about RSS, Social Bookmarking, and how we get information using Real Simple Syndication (RSS). We also talked about Google’s ChromeBook, Laura’s review of the Chromebook (as well as a few others), and how Chrome Apps can change what you do around your office and work. We hit on how we think this might change education. And we welcomed Bruce Mann to the show!
When we last left the tale, I had been given notice by our IT guy that not only were we capable of storing and saving the data that I wanted, we already had the software that we needed present on our computers and, not only that, we were already using it, just not correctly. I was more amused than anything, but not overly surprised. Given an environment of high turnover, a system that is fairly complex, and an overall student affairs fear of data, I found it not altogether shocking that this information would have disappeared somewhere along with the names of the guys who shot Tupac and Biggie and the Iraqi WMD’s.
So, Chapter 3 starts where the IT guy warns me that he was nearing the end of his effectiveness, as, most likely, we didn’t have access to the student database that we needed to cross reference the IDs that we swiped so that we could actually make something reasonable out of the data other than just a collection of scrabble like number combinations. Quite literally, the data we were collecting would be useless without access to this database.
Let’s pause here for a little personal interlude. After we’d figured out that we could in fact collect the IDs with our swipes and save the information, I was feeling particularly empowered. I went across the hall to @curtistmed’s office and immediately told him that, not only were we good to start collecting data, but that we would eventually be able to use it. Frankly, I had nothing to back this up at the time. However, we all know that the university is largely about politics. Going into an assistant vice president’s office and saying “we need to collect some data and use it” is a far different than “we’ve been collecting this data all semester but IT won’t let us use it”. Huge difference, in fact. Question 1 is complex and multi layered, Question 2 is not complex. My political clout, if you will, to get what I need, would ultimately be in the data that we were going to collect and I knew we would be able to collect it.
Personal interlude 2 – I’m relentless. Keep turning me down and I will keep knocking at your door. Acting like that is a stupid philosophy when you’re being selfish. Acting like that when you’re trying to do the best job possible at work, and the thing that you’re trying to get will make you better at your job is smart. Play your political cards correctly, push when pushing is wise, and step your game up when pushing isn’t wise. I should explain the step your game up piece – going and whining to your AVC when you haven’t done your research and due diligence is foolish. If you’re going to appeal to a higher power, then at least do your due diligence. I’m reminded of the story about the man drowning on the roof of the house and praying for God to save him and he sees a man with a raft, a man with a plane and a man with a hot air balloon (or was it a jet ski or something? I swear I’ve never seen a hot air balloon just randomly flying over a flood. Maybe it was a dinghy), but he turns down all three rides . When God comes back, the man says “you didn’t save me” and God says “who do you think sent the boat, the plane and the balloon?” Don’t be that dude. Regardless of your religious affiliation, I hope you understand that the idea is about using all the resources at your disposal before you start wasting your AVC’s time. The AVC is the nuclear option. If you play your cards right and utilize all your resources, you shouldn’t need to use them, unless you get to the point you really can’t do anything else. Then it’s time to push the red button.
Anyway, back to the story.
So, the IT guy sets up another appointment to come by and check out whether we had access to this student database on Banner. I’m going to spare the argument that I think could (and maybe should) be made about whether all of us should have access to these files. He was surprised to find that our office did, in fact, have access to all of the student records through Banner, and within about five minutes of clicking around in Microsoft Access, we had a query set up to pull student data like Year/Classification/Age/Housing Status/Meal Plan/Major from the student files. The one piece we don’t have access to was, this is slightly hilarious, the file that actually contains the data we’re collecting. In IT guy’s opinion, this was not especially secure information and he saw no reason that we shouldn’t be able to get access. I concur. It would be even more fun to go into our AVC’s office and say “i’ve been collecting data all semester, can i please access it?” The access has been requested, though, so we’ll see how it goes.
At this point, I felt comfortable to approach our interim director, the Assessment Director for our Student Affairs Department about the process I’d been going through and how far I’d made it, and I think it’s fair to call her reaction complete and total shock. I won’t go into the details of the conversation because that’s for her to share, but suffice it to say, she was shocked that I’d been able to get this access to data and the ability to swipe cards to tally who was attending events. My reaction “i really wish I could tell you this was complicated and I’d done something magical, but I genuinely think people had had difficulty getting access to the student data that they need, so they just started telling people they couldn’t event track attendees at all and shouldn’t waste their time”. Obviously, that statement was complete conjecture on my part, but it’s my best guess to why I got to where I did and others haven’t. I should add that the overwhelming assistance from the man in IT was a huge help. IT man, if you read this, I owe you a beer (or six).
I watched the movie “Do the Right Thing”, A Spike Lee joint (his words, not mine) on my Netflix Instant last night; it had been sitting there on the queue for several weeks and possibly months, partly because I knew it was going to be challenging (it’s Spike Lee) and party because I was tearing through several TV shows and rather than investing in a 2 hour movie that might be challenging, I often opt for the thing that I can knock out in 30 minutes or so and keep it moving.
But anyway, “Do the Right Thing” featured a star studded cast, including the dude that I would later grow to be disgusted by as Burrell on the Wire, Danny Aiello who I only knew from Peter mentioning him on Family Guy, Spike himself, Bill Dunn, who I mostly knew as the guy who looked out for Whoopie Goldberg in Sister Act, and John Turturro. Ok, maybe not star studded, but more studded with a bunch of “hey, it’s that guy!” actors. The basic gist is that it’s really hot in Brooklyn and when it’s really hot, the racial tensions also rise, resulting in a catastrophic fire, all with the encouragement to do the right thing.
The idea to “do the right thing” is an interplay between the philosophies of Martin Luther King Jr and Malcolm X, MLK, of course, standing for non-violence and Malcolm X believing that violence was the right means by which to achieve racial justice and societal equity and fairness. While counterphilosophies in some obvious ways, a photo is shown of the two hugging, dapping it up and laughing, the message being that both of these men were fighting for the same goal, racial equality, and that the listener should take both of their philosophies in, ponder the situation and then do the right thing. To go all biblical with it, there’s a season for war and a season for peace, and everything has it’s season.
The movie is quite jarring, both for Spike’s style of filmmaking and for the subject matter. No one is completely in the right and no one completely in the wrong, much like real life, it’s more complex than that in the film. Movies and books, at least the weaker ones, have a tendency to tie things up in neat bows so that the consumer of the media can leave the media feeling a little better. ”Do the Right Thing” doesn’t give you that option. The ending scene left my stomach stirred up in knots. The actions of the young African American men, fighting to have a black person up on the “Wall of Fame” and blasting Public Enemy on a stereo in Sal’s pizza parlour feel more than a tad silly; they seem to want to fight for justice and “fight the power” (not too subtle chuck d inclusion) but don’t know how to do it for something consequential. Sal, in a fit of rage, smashes the stereo and uses the n-word; this man, up until this point doesn’t seem to have a racist bone in his body and talks with great pride about feeding the African American neighborhood and even seems to be in love with Spike’s sister in the film. No one feels right, but no one feels wrong. In fact, everyone feels right and justified but everyone feels wrong. It’s just complex. I’m still wrestling with what happened after that tipping point moment, and may have to watch the film again to continue processing.
Also, the film confronted me with an awkward realization. I really don’t think about how to “do the right thing” ever at all. I know that 100%, this is my privilege talking, but I can honestly say I’ve never had to think about how to fight for justice and equity. As a white/straight/protestant male, I am the power that is being fought. We still hold all the keys to the doors, even though, it does seem that slowly others are getting in and I think that’s great. But from my upbringing until now, I’ve lived a mostly homogenized life, definitely never living in a situation like Sal, where he was literally the only white guy serving an entirely black populace. Nor can I identify with the experience of the African American folks in the film, where one step outside of the lines of the law can place you in a situation where a cop will far overstep his bounds, mostly just because he can.
I don’t think this is something that you can just remedy. I know that people who work in my line of work like to do programs that try to help stupid white people like myself understand the experiences of minorities. But these programs remind me of my friends in college that told me they were “going to be homeless for a summer” and my response was “no, you’re not”. The truth is that you can’t be homeless for a summer, because if you’re like these gentlemen and come from good loving families then you can’t appreciate the experience of being homeless. If they got tired of being homeless, they could just turn around and go home. So, for me to try to understand the experience of a minority by trying to be like a minority for a day is completely insulting to the minority experience. When I leave the Tunnel of Oppression, I go back to being white/male/straight/protestant. And here’s the kicker, as long as I’m in that tunnel, I know in my head that it’s just a game, like going to a movie or something and even if it sucks, it will all be over soon.
Here’s the thought I was left with after the movie…I think we can all encourage each other to not be dummies about things. Try to see the darkness and the weakness, and dare I say, the racism and hatred within ourselves. So, you know, that sounds like enough. But here was my other thought that tied along with that. I think that when it comes to my minority brothers and sisters, I understand that sometimes you’re gonna have to do what you have to do. Sometimes that might involve burning a place down and sometimes it might involve just being really pissed off about things that I have a hard time understanding. But I want you to know that I’ll do my best to support you, even if I don’t understand, because I think that’s the best way that I can do my right thing. Do yours, my friends.
Tom Krieglstein posed a question during Thursday’s student affairs chat that I thought was absolutely on the money. His question:
Are we all saying Twitter as #1, because we are on Twitter? What about the rest of the SA ppl not on Twitter?
The topic for the chat revolved around the idea of a social media plan and what that might look like and many people were responding that Twitter was their most used social media tool. Tom’s question landed in the middle of those comments.
My response to Tom? Absolutely. I said in a conversation recently that I think the effect of Twitter is to make the user feel like there are more people present than actually are. A group of even 100 people, tweeting with regularity, in a centered period of time can feel like a ton. Student Affairs chat is a structured chat that involves a group of people coming together at the same time to tweet. It feels like overload. But I genuinely don’t think it’s that many people in the context of student affairs as a profession. And for the most part, the medium of Twitter appeals to a certain personality type. Users of Twitter are most likely extroverted (I’m saying users here not people who try it and quit) and they’re most likely willing to try something new and share information with people they barely know. Even the most shy and guarded individuals on Twitter are more open and expressive than the general population.
But because it feels like a lot of people and it feels like it’s growing, the student affairs chat creates this illusion that it’s huge and representative, and I think it’s false. I haven’t seen a survey (and for the love of God, please don’t create one) about who these people actually are that participate in the student affairs chat, but I feel comfortable saying that they are largely young professionals, largely semi tech-savvy, and largely extroverted. There are absolutely populations (and dare i say, locations) that are not represented as heavily and the few senior level admins often seem to carry the load for the rest that aren’t.
My point is the perception and reality of what the community is are likely disparate.
The student affairs chat community on Twitter is a group of people that use the hashtag as a point of connection to network with other student affairs professionals. That’s it. It’s not another professional association. Getting on Twitter and tagging your questions with the hashtag will not ever be a substitute for doing actual research yourself or talking to the colleagues that you work with every day or are in your grad school classes. It can certainly be supplemental, just like all of your professional networks, but it will never (and should never) be a substitute for old fashioned question asking.
The other issue that Tom’s post made me think of is the elitist discussion. I get where people are coming from, and I don’t blame them for thinking people are elitists. I blame the people telling everyone that they need to get on Twitter and do student affairs chat for creating false and misleading expectations. The enthusiasm is awesome and I think the enthusiasm is a testament to how much this community has meant to a lot of people. But, not everyone needs to be on Twitter! It’s not for everyone! I have a suspicion that student affairs professionals are being encouraged to join Twitter by these evangelists for the student affairs chat and then having expectations that the community doesn’t meet. It’s important to remember that Twitter is a fairly difficult medium to engage in for a lot of people; the studies I’ve looked at say that about 10% of the people that sign up for an account ever get actively engaged.
I tell people that if they’re interested in networking outside of the traditional sphere then they might want to consider Twitter. I teach them about hashtags, not just student affairs chat, and share with them how this might help them to connect. BUT we also have to explain that it is pretty easy to get yourself in trouble or make a mess if you aren’t at least semi-cognizant of other people reading and sharing what you say. I’ve known multiple people who’ve been ratted out to bosses by participants in student affairs chat. It’s a risk-reward thing, and if you don’t think it’s for you, I would still encourage you to find what is for you.
One example we were talking about today was that, for someone who struggles with Twitter, a blog makes tons of sense. A blog is much more controlled, much less likely to be misunderstood and a little easier to control your message. It has some of the features that Twitter doesn’t. I’m not telling anyone to blog (however, one secret – i swear i don’t spend that much time doing this, as you can probably tell by my frequent editing errors), but it might be an alternative.
If you work in student affairs, I would encourage you to think about if social media is something that’s right for you (social media=facebook, blogging, twitter, ustream, youtube, etc). Each of us have certain personality traits that lend itself better to different technologies. Gauge your own comfort with being “out there” on the internets. Consider what your plan is for finding employment and career advancement. And determine what’s right for you.
And for those who are always on Twitter and participating in student affairs chat, remember that this isn’t for everyone. Temper your excitement and be respectful of the differences in us as people. And much like with your students, help our friends to be the best version of them, online and off, rather than what you think they should be. We don’t earn our salary from converts (oh wait, y’all aren’t getting paid for this?)
Someone told me the other day that they thought we didn’t do anything during the summer in activities since we largely stopped doing programming. While we do for all intensive purposes stop doing programming, it’s a little shortsighted to say that we’re not working.
I say that May is vacation month in student activities, as well as much of the rest of the university. I call it May, sponsored by Yahoo games, because if there’s any time that office playtime hits then it’s May. I think everyone in our department took some time off and more than one of us took an entire week off. The yearly programming calendar that requires us to be on campus and in events during the school year completely grinds to a halt during May.
who doesn't love pop n drop?
However, May was project time for most of my fellow professionals. We wrote up a sponsorship packet, collaboratively with our program team, that I will share on this blog as soon as my colleagues feel okay with me doing that, and I already mentioned the assessment program that I started with a blog post, and updated recently (and it’s almost ready to be updated again). Those projects took up a good chunk of my May, as well as prepping for our orientation program that started in June.
The other thing that we’ve been taking a lot of May to do is to prepare for the fall. I was a new staff member in October, so I, quite literally, am not sure what some of our fall programs are supposed to look like. We obviously had welcome week and homecoming somewhere in there, but these are different at every campus, so it’s pretty hard to conceptualize the exact scope of traditional programs without having seen them.
So, has my May been different than my year? Hell yeah. Does that mean we’re not doing anything? Of course not. We’ve been doing lots of different and that includes me begrudgingly showing up at 9am every day. Is it August yet?